UPC vs. HaHa Jr

Time to organize a move. A trickle of maybe a couple players a day? Maybe even giving people time to come back into HaHa and rebuild, and go back into HaHa jr?

Although I would be against flooding over there with superior numbers and size. I think we can beat em with just some heavy hitters.

UPC declared war on HaHa Jr.
http://board.ikariam.com/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=65383

I think we gotta stand up and defend Ha Ha Jr. Theres no question.

May I prepare a DoW. Can people start doing circulars to get mobilized?

I would we Dow and get on the move attacking them !!!

I will start some circs up.

This is King Solomon:

Oh, please, please, please do not DOW. If you want to join the fight, I have 26 spots open for any HAHA member who wants into HA Jr. Please let us kids have one good kick ball game before you grown ups take over the field!

KS. This is a bigger issue now. We will decide what we need to do here but there is no way we can let you lose.

It looks bad on us if we do not come to your aid in some form. I know we are already pretty involved but they have dictated terms to you. This lets us dictate terms to them.

Odd... I thought we were working to a better partnership between HA Jr and HAHA. Are we back to HAHA tells us what to do, and we just sit back and slumber? If that's the case- have at it. I'll disband HA Jr the minute you say you are ready to absorb them. Then it can be purely HAHA business, and I'll not have to worry about it anymore.

Lose? Lose? Who said we are going to lose? I have 26 spots open for new players. If you have any doubt at all that we can't win, come on over, and fight under the HA Jr. tag!

UPC has dictated no terms. They have whined for a peace treaty. They have begged for a cease fire. Nowhere in the DOW are there terms.

KS, I have no idea where the attitude comes from.

Should we take all the HaHa players back first? We are in a partnership here. Thats the key. PARTNERSHIP.

If you go to war, so should we. Our people have to come back to HaHa eventually anyway.

As far as where the attitude comes from... well, I guess you missed some events going on between HAHA and HA Jr these past few weeks. I'm sorry I popped off at you. There has been talk of disbanding HA Jr and absorbing it into HAHA tossed in the hat every three days, it seems. To get a clearer picture, ask CA or TIMALMIGHTY. I think if you have a chance to chat with either of these guys, you may understand why I fly off the walls and ceilings every time there is mention of HAHA stepping in and taking over.

I see no lack of prestige to the Hammer family to allow the training alliance to trash the crap out of UPC. If we start losing, all you have to do is either cycle out spent warriors who are already here and replace them with fresh people ready to fight, or just have more of your guys join us.

I don't see how we can lose if you are willing to help us. However, please... I beg of you... do NOT take over our only chance at a decent war.

Before this gets going down the wrong road .
I think the understanding was or is that we would always manage the fate of Ha Jr from HAHA.
On the surface or the face of Theta we as HAHA have to come to the aid and WIN thru HA Jr whether we have to funnel the whole HAHA alliance into HA Jr. Or fight from the HAHA Tag.
It doesnt make sense for us to have a "trainee" alliance if we leave them out to dry by any aggressor.

So I fully understand brbdc's point as the public face for HAHA and how he has to manage that and keep us known properly.

But............. I also understand where KS is coming from and we've not always taken a hands on approach to Ha Jr and the amount of seperation has left Ha Jr seem autonomous.
I understand where KS would like to use this exercise (War) as "training" and as a filter to weed out the campers and actual farms that use the HA Jr Tag.
We have designated him as the leader (manager) of our trainee alliance and I think the tilt should be on his side out of respect to his position and capacity by what we've asked him to do with those new players.

So I'm vexed as to understanding what brbdc has to maintain and what KS is trying to accomplish as well.
I'm looking at this scenerio as a chance for us to come to better understandings and conclusions in the event that this happens again so that we can work out solutions that become standards that we all follow and understand in the future.

I went over to HA Jr to offer support to KS. I hope I haven't let him down.

However I feel that this needs to accomodate both alliances along with everyone maintaining their positions respectfully.

Well its clear KS wants it to be his own alliance. I understand that.

But KS does not see all the people and circulars and our general who want to DoW UPC for this event.

I am either fully involved or not. Thats how you fight a war. Wars are also hell on training alliances. People who are small and helpless quit and defeat to other alliances. I dont like this path of splitting the war between alliances. We should be a unified front.

I am not trying to be controversial but 2 things scream out to me!

1) UPC DOW'ed Ha Jr not HAHA......I'm just saying this as an exact point not as an opinion to sway anyone decisions.

2) We have fighters in HA Jr that created this DOW and have been fighting as HA Jr's

Being over here in HA jr I can see why KS wants to fight this on his own. I can also understand brbdc wanting to get HAHA involved too. I do agree that yes it would look bad IF HA jr would lose this war but I know HAHA won't let that happen. What if HAHA came out and said that they would be watching the war closely and that they were ready to jump in if HA jr needed them. In the meantime, fighters can come and go to HA jr to fight and help out? This way the fighters can get some and can help teach the players over in HA jr and if it starts to go down hill then HAHA can jump in and defend its training alliance? If nothing else maybe it will help strengthen the bond between both alliances?

I don't think we need to jump in at all. Let's sit back and consider the advantages to not DoW'ing, and moving fighters over

1.) The supply lines stay safe. I was messaged by the UPC diplomat, and it seemed like they do not want a piece of HaHa. Therefore, they will be less likely to attack HaHa suppliers to HaHa Jr fighters.

1a.) 26 slots is more than enough to move a sizeable amount of force into HaHa Jr.

2.) HaHa not being at war gives us time, before we decide to move, to build an army. We get to hop into HaHa jr with intact supply lines and fully functional armies. Although I would advise against planting MWC's or warpers before we move. That might be too overt.

3.) If anyone ever needs respite, they will be able to go back into HaHa and take a breather.

Also, don't forget that UPC started this. If they hadn't attacked HaHa jr, we wouldn't have moved people there in the first place. Let's gear up and move over.

I have a funny plan, but it's kinda tentative.

It rides on the fact that DoW's are weird. When an alliance changes its name, like we had on eta, in the middle of a war, then you have to re-DoW. The question is, does it work the other way around?

So, if HaHa Jr and HaHa switch names, is UPC stuck fighting a HaHa Jr that used to be called HaHa? I talked to our GO, but his answer was kinda tentative.

Thoughts?

Hmmm.... the name change is interesting.... but it has to be done simultaenously i think.

with regards to the DOW. i am confident and at ease that the remaining 26 slots being filled by Ha-Ha members to join Ha-Jr is more than enough to give us a win over UPC. i see nothing wrong in it and i see where KS is coming from.i think its understandable for UPC to accept that Ha-Ha and Ha Jr can change members at any given time and situaiton.

if UPC gets fed up of Ha-Ha players moving over to Ha-Jr then they should drop the dow on Ha-Ha too.

I think HA-HA should not get involved (officially) unless things get really ugly for baby hammers. Because, they are our trainee alliance, and we need to train them in war too. If HA-HA jumps in every time someone DOW on them, and beat the crap out of them, baby hammers will not get any experience in war.

I think the best way to get fighting experience is to send a few good fighters to HA-HA Jr. and let the babies fight along side them

My humble opinion.

Here are my thoughts folks.

In general terms I believe that a DoW against Ha Jr is a DoW against us all. We are all united under the HaHa name after all. HOWEVER:

We could view this as a "training excersize" for our "training alliance" and refrain from overtly entering.

In any case, since this is the first time this has happened, how we handle this situation this time sets the tone for how we handle all future occurances of a DoW against only 1/2 of our alliance.

For myself in particular I have signed garrison rights treaties with some of my Ha Jr neighbors and have troops in town.

I have been sending occasional gifts of resources to speed growth of my Ha Jr neighbors. If I receive a thank you the gifts continue.

If our decision is to keep the main alliance out of the war then I will do the same as I would for other neighbors that I am on good terms with, and send troops for defense only.

If we decide to treat this as a training excersize I think that CA or brbdc should post HA HA's terms (both alliances obviously) in the DoW thread that keeps it a training excersize and what will cause it to escalate to full scale war with the full alliance.

EDIT: and KS if you would like marble and building materials to keep your embassies growing just say the word and it's on the way.

Thank you, Carsear. Frankly, I don't want the marble at the moment... I'm in thick, and don't want any lootable resources in my warehouses, if you know what I mean. I might take a look at some of my more remote towns and send you coordinates and amounts that don't go over the "loot mark" and put in a few more embassy levels, but I think 20 spaces is still pretty good for now.

A suggestion for HaHa's terms that would escalade this would be involvement in any way from C-4 or OLY. Would that be fair? Maybe an announcement that any OLY or C-4 player giving help in terms of pumping gold, or granting garrison rights would be handled by HAHA?

This is up to you guys. I'm just throwing out ideas.

Our position has already been vaguely made in the war thread.

For the record, I do not like this path and I really dont appreciate KS unwillingness to work with us without complete control over the situation.

Good luck KS.

I wasn't necessarilly fond of BGD's path to RUMR but I supported him in speech and in troop support.

KS is the LEADER of our training alliance. We have asked him to repeat 100 times a day what the fuck is a CT.

He got hisself in a jam with UPC and asked for help. What is so hard about this scenerio.
He was tremendous in helping with RUMR/MLP.
Don't we owe him a level of gratitude!
Naturally KS has an attitude. He has newbies to deal with and 62 different directives from HAHA on how to run the training alliance and yet none of us are doing it.

I dont know who this brbdc is. I think someone has hijacked his acct.
The Ben I knew I actually was so impressed that I learned something and I'm 45 fucking yrs old!

KS will receive my support as long as I'm the Home Secretary of HAHA.

We need fighters and resources and especially GOLD.
I hate to be so bold but this is totally going down a path that has me confused.
How can I come to Ha Jr and make amends and yet there still be a struggle within our main alliance HAHA ???
It's almost as IF you dont support ME!!!!!

I'm asking everyone to rally up and be on guard.

I need all of the senior leadership and council to step up and help me finish this to a glorious finish. I need you all to motivate as many as you can!

I know we didnt want a war b4 christmas but this one has reared its ugly head and we cant back down and fail now.

Please.......PLEASE HELP ME in this campaign!

I'm moving soon tim.

Also, KS, i got 96 diplomacy points, if you wanted me to take over just for the duration of the war, so we can get more people...

i didn't want to post on this topic but brbdc is right...
TIM,i saw personally how KS and his crew run HA Jr...that's why we have this UPC situation...too many farms,with leaders doing nothing...
i also know he's vain and jealous...
he wants war,using our members,but yet he doesn't accept our supremacy and ultimate leadership,nor he's interested to find out and comply with our ideas...forcing smaller guys to war,so you can have some fun is not the way to lead training alliance...
in the end...KS, can you explain what you have done with instructions(military standard and building manual) i added to HA Jr internal page?
i didn't change what was there before,so i had respect for your work...you failed to show respect for my 2 days work...does that make you qualified to lead training alliance?
leader is not only someone with high level embassies,but the 1 with vision and strong enough to move members forward...i'll eat my ikariam diploma if KS is that kind of person...
also,to let you all know...same KS booted me from HA Jr...lol...

Damir, I can copy and paste my original internal page, which is back up again. You will have to ask nlarso about the internal page he had up. I found it confusing. I agree that the new leadership that I thought was imposed on me by direct order of HAHA leadership was ineffective.

Current internal page:
As mentioned on our external page, we do have some rules regarding hoarding resources, refusing to build military defenses, stagnating, and going inactive. Here they are:

GOING INACTIVE: You will simply be removed from the alliance. You are welcome to rejoin when you return. Ikiriam has a vacation option which allows you to put your account in suspended animation for three or more days. If you can't log in and check your account at least every three days, go on vacation.

STAGNATING: If one of the alliance officers notices that several days have gone by without you increasing in any points, we may message you asking you what is up. You have three days to answer and let us know. If you do not answer in three days, you will be removed from the alliance. Again, you are welcome to rejoin. We understand real life issues sometimes get in the way.

MILITARY DEFENSES: We can split this rule into two areas; buildings you need to have, and troops you need to have in your towns.
BUILDINGS: Each and every town must have a town wall and a hideout leveled up to the same level as your town hall.
UNITS: Each town must have a warship in every harbor. Any town with more than 3000 lootable resources must also have a full wave of units. A full wave is:

Village: (Town hall levels 1-5):
Frontline- 90 spearmen (beginning,) or 90 Hoplites (intermediate) or 30 Steam Giants (best)
Backline- 90 slingers (beginning,) or 90 Archers (intermediate,) or 21 Sulfur Carabineers (best)
No flanking units required in towns level 1-5

Town (Town hall level 6-9):
Frontline- 150 Spearmen (silly,) or 150 Hoplites (intermediate,) or 50 Steam Giants
Backline- 150 Slingers (weak,) or 150 Archers (intermediate) or 35 Sulfur Carabineers
Flanks- 60 Spearmen (weak) or 60 Swordsmen

Town level 10+
Frontline- 210 Spearmen (suicidal,) or 210 Hoplites (intermediate,) or 70 Steam Giants
Back line- 210 Slingers (silly) 210 Archers (intermediate) or 49 Sulfur Carabineers
Flanks- 120 Spearmen (weak,) or 120 Swordsmen

It is acceptable to have no military units (except a war ship) in any town without lootable resources. Many begining players will get one garrison full in one town and send all resources gathered in other towns to that "fortress" town for protection.

RESOURCE HOARDING: Much like stagnation, an alliance officer may contact you and ask what is going on if we see your warehouses bulging. Again, you have three days to answer.

We have a lot of great players in the alliance who just LOVE to answer questions. Please ask. There are no stupid questions. We've seen everything from "How do I post a circular message?" to "What is a CT?" to "Do I have to make a workshop in every town?" to "What is the deal with these miracles?" ALL of these are great questions, and we await the opportunity to answer them!

New leadership is ineffective? What good does that do us? Its not like you have actively and regularly contacted us or posted here or on the ikariam boards before.

Im ready to just drop the issue. Like I said before (read up). But your attitude concerns me. HaHa does not want HaHa Jr telling them what to do and lets face it...That's what your doing here.